Shiur summary (draft from the recording)
Ohel arai vs. ohel keva; sichas talmidei chachamim
משיחתו של רבן גמליאל
Sukkah 21b · from line 19 · Monday, November 3, 2025
The sugya
The Gemara gives another reason for R' Yehuda's psak against sleeping under a bed in the sukkah: sukkah is a diras keva, and a temporary ohel cannot be mevatel a permanent ohel. R' Shimon argues on that principle. The shiur then learned the braisa of R' Shimon, that from the sicha of Rabban Gamliel we learn two things. The Gemara asks why the braisa calls it a sicha and not simply his words. It answers that this teaches a side lesson: even the casual talk of talmidei chachamim needs to be learned, from the pasuk v'alehu lo yibol.
Step by step (shakla v’tarya)
- ChazarahUntil now every reason for R' Yehuda came from R' Yehuda's own shitos, and we found inconsistencies in what he holds (tefach, egrof, man-made, etc.). Now the Gemara gives a different reason, one that involves R' Shimon.
- ShitahV'i ba'is eima, R' Yehuda l'taameih: sukkah diras keva ba'inan. A mitah is a diras arai and the sukkah is an ohel keva, and an ohel arai cannot come and be mevatel an ohel keva.
- The RebbiWhen you are in your bed, we do not look at you as being in your bed but as being in your sukkah, because the sukkah is the ikar. It is like ikar and tafel by brachos.
- KashaV'ha R' Shimon also says sukkah diras keva ba'inan, yet he holds an ohel arai can come and be mevatel an ohel keva?
- The RebbiThe Rebbi reads the line with a question mark: make up your mind, is it mevatel or not? If R' Yehuda's rule is taken as a rule, this is a kasha on R' Shimon.
- MachlokesB'ha pligi: R' Shimon holds an ohel arai can be mevatel an ohel keva. R' Yehuda holds it cannot.
- MishnahEnd of the Mishnah: R' Shimon holds the same as the Tanna Kamma, that one may not sleep under a bed. He brought it out through the story of Tavi, the eved of Rabban Gamliel. Rabban Gamliel said Tavi is a talmid chacham who knows that avadim are patur from sukkah, and therefore he sleeps under the bed.
- GemaraTanya: the braisa is like the Mishnah plus a little more. R' Shimon said: from the sicha of Rabban Gamliel we learned two things.
- RashiSicha is speech spoken with simcha; the Rebbi brings this from Rashi, explaining that the word comes from simcha. He renders it as the happy dialogue, schmooze or casual conversation of Rabban Gamliel.
- GemaraFirst: avadim are patur from sukkah, just like women. Second: one who sleeps under a bed is not yotzei his chiyuv.
- RashiThe Rebbi said he thinks Rashi says that under the bed you are not yotzei with any form of being in the sukkah.
- The braisa does not say much more than the Mishnah; it lays out what we learn from the story.
- KashaVe'leima mi'devarav shel Rabban Gamliel: why call it a sicha and not just his words? We can deduce things from any speech.
- The RebbiLearning Gemara is all about diyukim from speech. If a teacher says that under 32 degrees you must wear a coat, everyone knows that above 32 you don't. So why use the fancy word sicha?
- The Mishnah did not use the word misichaso; it just said v'amar lahen Rabban Gamliel. A student noted a similar difficulty with the Mishnah's wording, and the Rebbi said Rashi there already asks the same kind of kasha.
- TeirutzMilsa agav orchei ka mashma lan: the braisa teaches a lesson on the side, a hashkafa lesson. Ka mashma lan (קמ״ל) means it comes to let us hear.
- GemaraLike Rav Acha bar Adda said, and some say Rav Acha bar Adda said in the name of Rav Hamnuna in the name of Rav.
- GemaraMinayin she'afilu sichas talmidei chachamim tzericha limud? Even their schmoozing, banter and joking needs to be learned from.
- RashiRashi: you need to listen to it and get something from it.
- The RebbiHalf of what we learn from Rav Chaim are stories. Someone was building a very big house and getting lost in the details. Rav Chaim asked: how will he do bedikas chametz?
- Ra'ayahShene'emar in the first kapitel of Tehillim: v'alehu lo yibol. A talmid chacham is compared to a tree with deep roots by the water. Even its leaves, the smallest part, do not wither. So too even the speech of a talmid chacham does not wither.
- MaskanaBecause the braisa framed it as a sicha, the lesson is to lend your ears to even the tiniest thing a talmid chacham says. Not only the fruits (asher piryo yiten b'ito), even the leaves have value.
- ChazarahReview from line 27 through line 35.
Kashas
- R' Shimon also holds sukkah diras keva ba'inan, so how can he hold an ohel arai is mevatel an ohel keva?
- Why does the braisa say misichaso of Rabban Gamliel and not simply mi'devarav?
Teirutzim
- R' Yehuda and R' Shimon argue precisely whether an ohel arai can be mevatel an ohel keva.
- Milsa agav orchei ka mashma lan: it teaches that even sichas talmidei chachamim needs limud.
Rashi & Tosafos
- Rashi: Sicha means words spoken with simcha; the word comes from simcha.
- Rashi: Per the Rebbi's recollection (he said he thinks Rashi says this): sleeping under the bed, one is not yotzei with any form of being in the sukkah.
- Rashi: On the Mishnah, Rashi already raises the same kind of kasha about the wording of Rabban Gamliel's statement.
- Rashi: Tzericha limud: one needs to listen to it and get something out of it.
Mareh mekomos
- Tehillim perek 1, v'alehu lo yibol: proof that even the casual talk of talmidei chachamim needs to be learned.
- Same pasuk, asher piryo yiten b'ito: not only the fruit, even the leaves have value.
- Story of Rav Chaim (a man building a very big house; how will he do bedikas chametz): an example of learning from a gadol's casual words.
The Rebbi’s chiddushim
- In the sukkah you are not considered in your bed but in your sukkah, since the sukkah is the ikar, like ikar and tafel by brachos. When his granddaughter was asked where she was, she said in her chair; but the chair is in the sukkah. A person won't say I'm in my bed, he'll say I'm in the sukkah.
- Read the line on R' Shimon as a question: make up your mind whether an ohel arai is mevatel or not.
- Diyuk example: under 32 degrees wear a coat implies above 32 you need not. So any speech can be learned from; why the special word sicha?
- When you walk a gadol home Friday night and hear him talk, you can almost learn more than from a formal shmooze.
- He heard once that a leaf is called aleh because leaves droop at night and rise up to greet the sun in the morning.
Unclear in recording
- A story about a sukkah in Eretz Yisrael where stones were sometimes thrown into the courtyard, and whether they could sleep there; the rav's answer is unclear in recording.
- Rashi's phrase quoted on the Mishnah (sounds like sicha shulim) is unclear in recording. The word in the Mishnah that the student had difficulty with (sounds like darkenu) is also unclear.
Drafted from the recording of the shiur, for chazarah. Torah terms follow the Rebbi’s own words; anything that could not be made out is marked “unclear in recording”. Tap a time to hear that point. Corrections welcome.