Shiur summary (draft from the recording)
R' Yaakov's Four Poles: Gud Asik and Dyumad
נעץ ארבעה קונדיסין
Sukkah 4b · Wednesday, May 13, 2026
The sugya
After a chazara of the machlokes between R' Yaakov and Chachamim about four poles (kundasin) with schach on top, and the shitos of Rav Huna (edge of the roof, gud asik) and Rav Nachman (middle of the roof), the shiur picked up with the braisa of poles in the ground. That braisa is a double teyuvta on Rav Huna. Rav Huna answers that they argue in both cases, and the middle of the roof is mentioned to show the koach of R' Yaakov. The shiur then learned the braisa explaining R' Yaakov's reason, dyumdei sukkah tefach, against the Chachamim's two walls k'hilchasan and a third of a tefach.
Step by step (shakla v’tarya)
- ChazarahChazara: braisa of na'atz arba'ah kundasin with schach on top. R' Yaakov is machshir and Chachamim are posel. The underlying issue of the whole sugya is where the walls are.
- ShitahRav Huna: the machlokes is when the poles are at the edge of the roof. R' Yaakov uses gud asik, raising the walls of the building. Chachamim hold there are no recognizable walls. In the middle of the roof it is too far for gud asik, and everyone holds pasul.
- ChazarahIn answer to a question, the Rebbi said that 'middle of the roof everyone holds pasul' is Rav Huna's own statement, not just an inference from his words.
- ShitahRav Nachman: the machlokes is in the middle of the roof. This introduces the concept of dyumad, which we see later today. The four posts are viewed like double pillars, similar to pasei bira'os, with a tefach this way and a tefach that way.
- ChazarahIbaya on Rav Nachman: if they argue in the middle of the roof, do all agree at the edge that it is kosher, or do they argue in both? Left as teiku.
- KashaAnother braisa: na'atz arba'ah kundasin ba'aretz. The ground is like the middle of a roof, and there R' Yaakov is machshir. This is a teyuvta on Rav Huna, who said that in the middle of the roof even R' Yaakov is posel.
- KashaV'od: from that braisa it appears they argue only in the middle, implying that at the edge everyone holds kosher. Shall we say it is a teyuvta on Rav Huna b'tarti? This is where they got up to yesterday.
- TeirutzLine 25: Amar lach Rav Huna, they argue in the middle of the roof, and v'hu hadin they argue on the edge of the roof.
- TeirutzThe braisa shows the machlokes in the middle of the roof l'hodiacha kocho d'R' Yaakov: even in the middle of the roof he is machshir.
- The RebbiSaying four posts are kosher is a huge chiddush. It throws off everything we know about sukkah, which demands real walls, and here it is not even gud asik.
- KashaDoesn't the edge of the roof also show the strength of the Chachamim, since they don't say gud asik there?
- TeirutzThe chutzpah of allowing something is much more brazen than not allowing it. It is like a Rav who is meikil and has articles written about him.
- GemaraLine 28, braisa: four poles in the ground. R' Yaakov says ro'in: any pole that, if carved and split, would leave a tefach on each side is judged mishum dyumad, a double pillar. If not, it is not judged as dyumad.
- Discussion: a square 4x4 post works too, and the pole does not have to be round. One does not actually carve it; the question is only whether it could be carved. A round pole needs imaginary carving on the outside and the inside, which is just math and needs more than a tefach diameter.
- The RebbiR' Yaakov's reason for being machshir even in the middle of the roof has nothing to do with gud asik; it is a different din. At the edge it could be because of gud asik. R' Yaakov may have two mechanisms at the edge, or the cases may involve different poles.
- GemaraShehaya R' Yaakov omer dyumdei sukkah tefach: a double pillar of a sukkah can be a tefach.
- The RebbiSo far the only dyumad din we know is pasei bira'os, which needs an amah. A major chiddush of R' Yaakov is that by sukkah a tefach is enough. It is his own halacha in mechitzos.
- MachlokesChachamim: ad sheyehu shtayim k'hilchasan, two fully legal walls (ten tefachim high by seven wide), ushlishis afilu tefach. This is the famous halacha l'Moshe miSinai of a sukkah, to be learned in two weeks.
- The RebbiThe Chachamim do not accept dyumad by sukkah at all, not even of an amah; they require a regular sukkah. R' Yaakov applies dyumad on all four corners.
- DechiyahA suggestion that shlishis afilu tefach works because of dyumad, but only on the third wall, was rejected by the Rebbi: he did not think so.
- The RebbiAsked why a halacha l'Moshe miSinai would be needed for a tefach: according to R' Yaakov, with four such dyumdin you are fully enclosed. Pasei bira'os is just a mashal showing that such a concept exists.
Kashas
- Braisa of poles ba'aretz: the ground is like the middle of a roof, yet R' Yaakov is machshir. This is a teyuvta on Rav Huna.
- V'od: the braisa implies that at the edge of the roof everyone holds kosher. Is this a teyuvta on Rav Huna b'tarti?
- If they argue at the edge too, doesn't that also show the strength of the Chachamim, who don't say gud asik?
- Why would a halacha l'Moshe miSinai be needed for a tefach, if R' Yaakov holds dyumad?
Teirutzim
- Rav Huna: they argue in the middle of the roof and v'hu hadin on the edge. The middle is mentioned l'hodiacha kocho d'R' Yaakov.
- Being matir is far more brazen than being posel, so the braisa highlights the case that shows R' Yaakov's koach.
- According to R' Yaakov, four dyumdin make you fully enclosed. Pasei bira'os is only a mashal showing the concept exists.
Rashi & Tosafos
- other rishon: The Rebbi said he thinks Rashi or the mefarshim say that Rav Huna's answer is a total, complete retraction. He was not certain of the source.
Mareh mekomos
- Pasei bira'os: the only dyumad din known so far, where an amah is required. Used as the model for R' Yaakov's dyumdei sukkah tefach.
- Halacha l'Moshe miSinai of two walls k'hilchasan and a third of a tefach, to be learned in about two weeks.
The Rebbi’s chiddushim
- R' Yaakov's psak overturns the basic expectation of real walls in a sukkah, which is why the braisa stresses his koach.
- The chutzpah of a heter is greater than that of an issur.
- R' Yaakov's heter in the middle of the roof is a separate din of dyumad, not gud asik. At the edge he might have two mechanisms.
- Dyumdei sukkah tefach is R' Yaakov's own halacha in mechitzos, a smaller shiur than the amah of pasei bira'os.
- The Chachamim reject dyumad by sukkah entirely; they need a regular sukkah.
Unclear in recording
- A source (possibly Tosafos) was cited about the concept of dyumad and why Shabbos (pasei bira'os) needs more, because it is more chamur. The source, the speaker and the details are unclear in recording.
- A remark that Rashi says it is a halacha l'Moshe miSinai and the third wall is only a tefach. The context is unclear in recording.
- Discussion of the tefach for the third wall in terms of lumber sizes (two by six, tefach is six) is unclear in recording.
Drafted from the recording of the shiur, for chazarah. Torah terms follow the Rebbi’s own words; anything that could not be made out is marked “unclear in recording”. Tap a time to hear that point. Corrections welcome.