Shiur summary (draft from the recording)
Ten tefachim without the schach, learned from the Kruvim
ממאי דחללה עשרה בר מסככה
Sukkah 5a · Thursday, May 21, 2026
The sugya
The shiur opened by reviewing the gezeirah shavah 'pnei pnei' for the kapores being a tefach, and the Gemara's suggestion to learn it from the Kruvim. After a side discussion on the meaning of 'Kruv', the Gemara asks how we know the ten tefachim of a sukkah exclude the schach. It answers from the Beis Olamim: the Kruvim stood at a third of the height, so their wings were above ten in the Mishkan, and the Torah calls them 'sochechim', 'schach' above ten. The shiur ended with the challenges that the wings may have been level with their heads, or far above ten.
Step by step (shakla v’tarya)
- ChazarahReview: the kapores is a tefach, learned through the gezeirah shavah 'pnei pnei' from 'pnei Yitzchak'.
- KashaLine 9: why not learn it from the Kruv? The pasuk in Parshas Terumah says 'el hakapores yihyu pnei hakruvim'.
- TeirutzRav Acha bar Yaakov: 'gemiri', we have a tradition that the faces of the Kruvim were not less than a tefach. Rav Huna also learned his gezeirah shavah from here.
- ChazarahDiscussion of which 'pnei' is meant. Originally the Gemara only said that a face is not less than a tefach (see amud aleph). That ran into the big bird and the tiny bird, so a gezeirah shavah from 'pnei Yitzchak' is needed.
- The RebbiEven with a gezeirah shavah we still apply tafasta merubah lo tafasta. This works only because no gezeirah shavah is available with a 'pnei' smaller than a tefach.
- Side point: what is a Kruv? R' Abahu says 'k'ravya', since in Bavel a child is called 'ravya'.
- KashaAbaye asks from Yechezkel: 'pnei ha'echad pnei hakruv ufnei hasheni pnei adam'. That would make a Kruv the same as an Adam.
- TeirutzAnswer: 'apei ravrevi v'apei zutrei'. The big face is the Adam and the small face is the child.
- KashaHow do we know the space of ten in a sukkah is ten excluding the schach ('bar m'schachah')? Maybe it is ten including the schach ('b'hadi schachah').
- The RebbiThe earlier derivation from the aron and kapores (R' Chanina, R' Yochanan etc.) is no longer needed for this question. It still teaches that there is a shiur of ten, but this is now a question about the sukkah itself, not about mechitzos.
- TeirutzRather, it is learned from the Beis Olamim (the Beis HaMikdash). The pasuk about Shlomo HaMelech's Bayis gives 60 amos length, 20 width and 30 height, and says each Kruv was ten amos tall.
- The RebbiThese Kruvim were separate, large statues in the Kodesh HaKodashim, not the Kruvim on the aron. The kelim did not change from the Mishkan to the Bayis Rishon, but Shlomo had multiple menoros and shulchanos and added the Yam shel Shlomo, with only one aron.
- Ra'ayahTanya, 'mah matzinu': in the Beis Olamim the Kruvim stood at a third of the house (10 of 30). So too in the Mishkan, where it was the Kruvim of the aron, the Kruvim stood at a third of the house.
- Ra'ayahThe Mishkan was ten amos tall, from 'eser amos orech hakeresh'. That is 'shitin pushchi', 60 tefachim, and a third of it is 20 tefachim.
- Ra'ayah'Dal asarah' of the aron and kapores, and ten tefachim remain. So the Kruvim's wings were ten tefachim above the kapores.
- Ra'ayahThe pasuk: 'vehayu hakruvim porsei chenafayim l'ma'lah sochechim bechanfeihem al hakapores'. 'Sochechim' is from the word schach, meaning shelter or cover.
- MaskanaLine 29: 'karyeh Rachmana sechachah l'ma'lah me'asarah'. The Torah calls schach that which is above ten.
- The RebbiThis is not even a gezeirah shavah. The word itself shows that schach is over a span of ten. The mechitza of ten is learned from the aron and kapores (with 'pnei pnei'). That it excludes the schach is learned from this pasuk.
- KashaLine 30: 'umimai d'gadfayhu ilui reishayhu kaimi, dilma l'hadi reishayhu kaimi'. Maybe the wings were level with their heads, and then it would again be ten including the schach.
- TeirutzRav Acha bar Yaakov: 'l'ma'lah' is written.
- Kasha'V'eima d'midli tuva': maybe the wings went up much higher than just above ten.
- Teirutz'Mi ksiv l'ma'lah l'ma'lah?' It does not say 'above, above'. The shiur ended with this rhetorical question.
Kashas
- Why not learn the tefach of the kapores from 'pnei hakruvim'?
- Abaye: in Yechezkel the face of the Kruv and the face of Adam are listed separately, yet if a Kruv is a child they are the same.
- How do we know the ten tefachim are without the schach? Maybe they include the schach.
- Maybe the wings of the Kruvim were level with their heads, not above them.
- Maybe the wings were raised much higher than ten.
Teirutzim
- Rav Acha bar Yaakov: we have a tradition that the faces of the Kruvim were not less than a tefach. Rav Huna learned his gezeirah shavah from here.
- A big face (Adam) and a small face (child).
- Learned from the Beis Olamim: the Kruvim stood at a third of the height, which in the Mishkan leaves ten tefachim above the aron and kapores. The Torah calls the wings 'sochechim'.
- 'L'ma'lah' is written.
- It does not say 'l'ma'lah l'ma'lah'.
Mareh mekomos
- Parshas Terumah, 'el hakapores yihyu pnei hakruvim': the suggested source for the tefach.
- Yechezkel, 'pnei ha'echad pnei hakruv ufnei hasheni pnei adam': Abaye's kasha. Also mentioned are the four faces (kruv, adam, aryeh, nesher).
- Mentioned in discussion: Yaakov's face on the Kisei HaKavod; the malachim going up and down recognized him (Parshas Vayetzei).
- Melachim, the Bayis of Shlomo HaMelech: 60 by 20 by 30 amos.
- Melachim, 'komas hakruv ha'echad eser ba'amah v'chein hakruv hasheini'.
- Parshas Terumah, 'eser amos orech hakeresh': the height of the Mishkan.
- 'Vehayu hakruvim porsei chenafayim l'ma'lah sochechim bechanfeihem al hakapores': schach above ten.
The Rebbi’s chiddushim
- Even with a gezeirah shavah, tafasta merubah still applies. It works here only because no 'pnei' smaller than a tefach exists to learn from, e.g. if a pasuk spoke of the face of a mosquito.
- The aron and kapores still teach the shiur of ten for a mechitza. The new question is specific to sukkah: does the ten exclude the schach?
- The ten-amah Kruvim of the Beis HaMikdash were separate statues in the Kodesh HaKodashim. The kelim stayed the same from the Mishkan to the Bayis Rishon.
- 'Karyeh Rachmana sechachah' is not a gezeirah shavah. The Torah's own word shows that schach spans a space of ten.
Unclear in recording
- A remark after the 'apei ravrevi' answer about someone not being recognized without a beard. Unclear in recording.
- Exchange with a talmid about whether the kasha relates to dirah serugah and about pieces poking in at ten. Unclear in recording.
- A reference to 'Rabbi Yisrael' saying that by sukkah nothing else is needed. Unclear in recording.
- A talmid's point that it cannot be ten, possibly about the heads versus the wings of the Kruvim. Unclear in recording.
Drafted from the recording of the shiur, for chazarah. Torah terms follow the Rebbi’s own words; anything that could not be made out is marked “unclear in recording”. Tap a time to hear that point. Corrections welcome.