Shiur summary (draft from the recording)
Hidlah Mishnah: lo gazrinan, even l'chatchila
אלא לאו כשחבטן
Sukkah 9b · from line 21 · Friday, August 28, 2026
The sugya
The Gemara proves from a Mishnah that we do not decree against a tree's branches that were pressed down and mixed in (k'shechavtan). That raises the kasha: what does the chiddush of Rava and Rav Pappa add? The teirutz is that the Mishnah could have been read as kosher only b'dieved, and our Gemara teaches it is allowed even l'chatchila. The chabura then reviewed the steps of the sugya together.
Step by step (shakla v’tarya)
- GemaraLine 21, "ela lav k'shechavtan": a rhetorical 'is it not', meaning it must be. The Mishnah must be talking where he pressed down the branches properly, with the vines and ivy lowered and mixed in.
- Ra'ayahLine 22, "ushma minah d'lo gazrinan": we see from this Mishnah that we do not decree. There is no concern about doing such a thing, and the sukkah is kosher.
- KashaIf so, what is our chiddush? The whole chiddush we arrived at through Rava, Rav Pappa, the question and the answer is already taught directly by a Mishnah.
- TeirutzLine 22: I would have thought "hani mili b'dieved". The Mishnah's kosher ruling applies only once it is already done, but l'chatchila one may not do it.
- MaskanaOur sugya with Rava and Rav Pappa teaches that this whole manipulation or strategy is allowed even l'chatchila.
- Practical aside: nowadays we do not build sukkahs under trees. There was a discussion with the chabura about lowering attached branches, such as a weeping willow, and mixing them in.
- ChazarahThe chabura reviewed steps 8 and 9 aloud. The Mishnah of hidlah must be where he mixed it in, since otherwise the sukkah would be pasul.
- ChazarahFrom that Mishnah we know there is no gezeirah, so why do we need our Gemara? Step 7 is an answer, 8 is a question, 9 is the answer (lines 16 to 22). Lines 22 to 23 give the b'dieved / l'chatchila answer.
- Challenge: master this sugya over Shabbos.
Kashas
- A Mishnah already teaches that we do not decree when the branches were pressed down. So what is the chiddush of Rava and Rav Pappa?
Teirutzim
- I would have thought the Mishnah means kosher only b'dieved. Our Gemara teaches that it is allowed even l'chatchila.
Mareh mekomos
- The Mishnah of hidlah alav es hagefen (as read in our Gemara): brought to prove lo gazrinan.
The Rebbi’s chiddushim
- "Ela lav" is the Gemara's rhetorical way of saying 'it must be': from everything we know, he must have done it properly.
- A l'chatchila case: a person who finds only a limited amount left at the schach store and has to be creative. Our Gemara permits this strategy even l'chatchila.
- It is striking that the Gemara teaches us so much, yet a Mishnah could have brought us directly to the same place.
Unclear in recording
- Discussion of a weeping willow with branches still attached to the ground and mixed in: the halachic point being made is unclear in recording.
- "But a weeping willow is still some aruba": unclear in recording.
Drafted from the recording of the shiur, for chazarah. Torah terms follow the Rebbi’s own words; anything that could not be made out is marked “unclear in recording”. Tap a time to hear that point. Corrections welcome.