Shiur summary (draft from the recording)
Rabbi Yehuda's 'no dwellers' and Shmuel's ten tefachim
אם אין דיורין בעליונה
Sukkah 10a · from line 19 · Tuesday, September 8, 2026
The sugya
The Gemara explains Rabbi Yehuda's statement in the Mishnah, 'if there are no dwellers in the upper sukkah, the lower one is kosher.' Its first explanation, that the upper sukkah is not ten tefachim high, implies the Tanna Kamma holds the lower sukkah is pasul even then, which is a kasha on Shmuel (k'hechshera kach pesula). Rav Dimi brings the Maaravi explanation: it depends on whether the lower sukkah's schach can hold the upper sukkah's cushions and blankets. The Rebbi showed that this too seems to be a kasha on Shmuel, until we see that the machlokes is very narrow. Both Tannaim hold k'hechshera kach pesula and argue only about a floor that holds with difficulty. He closed with a chart of the practical cases.
Step by step (shakla v’tarya)
- Starting from line 19. The Gemara now brings Rabbi Yehuda from the Mishnah.
- The Rebbi notes that the Gemara explains Rabbi Yehuda through the question on Shmuel. Without that, we might have explained Rabbi Yehuda in the Mishnah a different way.
- MishnahRabbi Yehuda: if there are no dwellers in the upper sukkah, the lower one is kosher. The Mishnah's case is upper kosher and lower pasul; without dwellers it is the other way around.
- GemaraWhat does 'ein dyorin' mean?
- DechiyahIf it means actual dwellers: do dwellers determine it? Actual people living there cannot decide the din. For example, squirrels living up there would not make the sukkah pasul.
- GemaraRather, 'ein dyorin' means not fit for dwelling, i.e. the upper sukkah is not ten tefachim high.
- The RebbiThis is the most basic explanation, 'sukkah 101': to be called a sukkah it must be ten tefachim.
- GemaraThis implies the Tanna Kamma holds the lower sukkah is pasul even when the upper is not fit for dwelling, i.e. even when the upper space is under ten.
- KashaThis is a kasha on Shmuel. Shmuel requires ten (k'hechshera kach pesula), but the Tanna Kamma apparently does not.
- GemaraLine 24: When Rav Dimi came he said that in Maarava they explained Rabbi Yehuda differently. If the lower sukkah cannot hold the cushions and blankets of the upper one, the lower is kosher.
- The RebbiThe Rebbi: this is not about height. The upper sukkah must be livable, meaning it has a sturdy floor. If not, it is not considered a sukkah and the lower one is kosher.
- GemaraThis implies the Tanna Kamma invalidates the lower sukkah even when the upper lacks a sturdy floor.
- KashaAn unspoken kasha (step 8): the Tanna Kamma would hold the upper still counts as a sukkah even if it is unlivable in any sense. Then he does not hold k'hechshera kach pesula, which is again a problem for Shmuel.
- The RebbiA talmid notes that we are equating height and strength. The Rebbi agrees: both fall under one umbrella called k'hechshera kach pesula.
- The RebbiThe Rebbi gives other examples of unlivability. One is a foul smell in the sukkah. Another is a sukkah in South Africa, which must be protected from robbers: the lower sukkah is secure but the upper is not.
- KashaExplaining Rabbi Yehuda this way took longer, but it is still a kasha on Shmuel. The only way out is to find a very small difference between them.
- MaskanaLine 9: really the Tanna Kamma also holds k'hechshera kach pesula, so the upper must be livable in every sense: usable floor, height of ten, etc. Rabbi Yehuda says the floor must be really sturdy; the Tanna Kamma accepts it even if delicate. They are all within k'hechshera kach pesula.
- ChazarahFinal chart, case 1: if the upper cannot support at all, all agree the lower is kosher, as Shmuel holds.
- ChazarahCase 2: if it supports normally, all agree it is a regular sukkah tachas sukkah, the case of the Mishnah, because you are under a valid sukkah.
- MachlokesThe machlokes is only the middle case, where the upper can support but not well. It must also be over ten; that is the only variable that keeps us out of trouble with Shmuel.
Kashas
- If 'ein dyorin' means actual dwellers, do dwellers determine the din?
- If Rabbi Yehuda means under ten, the Tanna Kamma holds the lower is pasul even then, contradicting Shmuel's k'hechshera kach pesula.
- With Rav Dimi's explanation, the Tanna Kamma counts the upper as a sukkah even when unlivable, still a kasha on Shmuel.
Teirutzim
- Rav Dimi in the name of Maarava: Rabbi Yehuda's criterion is whether the lower's schach can hold the upper's cushions and blankets, not height.
- Both Tannaim hold k'hechshera kach pesula. They argue only whether the floor must be really sturdy (Rabbi Yehuda) or may be delicate (Tanna Kamma).
The Rebbi’s chiddushim
- The Gemara explains Rabbi Yehuda through the question on Shmuel; otherwise we might have explained the Mishnah differently.
- Squirrels living in the upper sukkah would not make it pasul, which shows actual dwellers cannot be the criterion.
- Rav Dimi's criterion is livability: the upper sukkah needs a sturdy floor.
- Height and floor strength are both forms of livability under the umbrella of k'hechshera kach pesula.
- South Africa example: a sukkah must be protected from robbers. A secure lower sukkah under an insecure upper one illustrates another sense of 'unlivable'.
- Practical chart: cannot support at all, lower kosher by all; supports normally, lower pasul by all (the Mishnah's case); the machlokes is only in the middle.
Unclear in recording
- A remark about how to frame Rabbi Yehuda ('it's the same thing really').
- A comparison to some kind of 'dira'.
- Names of the Amoraim said to have no problem with this ('Ravuna and Abba Barafuna').
- What exactly the Rebbi said about the upper sukkah in case 1, beyond the lower being kosher.
- The shiur ends mid-sentence while applying the South Africa example to the chart.
Drafted from the recording of the shiur, for chazarah. Torah terms follow the Rebbi’s own words; anything that could not be made out is marked “unclear in recording”. Tap a time to hear that point. Corrections welcome.