Shiur summary (draft from the recording)
Source that the ten tefachim exclude the schach
וממאי דחללה עשרה
Sukkah 5a · Monday, May 25, 2026
The sugya
The Gemara asks how we know the minimum ten tefachim of a sukkah are below the schach and do not include it. It sets aside the earlier limud and learns it from the Beis Olamim and the Mishkan. The keruvim's heads stood at a third of the height, which is 20 tefachim. Subtracting the ten of the aron and kapores leaves ten, and the keruvim's wings, which the Torah calls 'sochechim', were above that. The shiur then showed that this works for R' Meir, who holds all amos were six tefachim, but not for R' Yehuda, who holds keilim used a five-tefach amah. For R' Yehuda it comes out 11.5, so he learns the shiur from a halacha l'Moshe miSinai: shiurin, chatzitzin and mechitzin.
Step by step (shakla v’tarya)
- KashaWho says the Mishnah's minimum of ten tefachim does not include the schach? It is true that the Shechina does not come down below ten and that the aron and kapores are ten, but where do we see that the schach is not included?
- GemaraFor sukkah purposes we wipe the board and learn it from the Beis Olamim (the Beis HaMikdash), using the pasuk that describes it.
- GemaraThe pasuk says each keruv was ten amos tall. This refers to the height of their heads, not their wings.
- Ra'ayahA braisa says that just as in the Beis Olamim the keruvim (their heads) stood at a third of the height of the house, so too in the Mishkan.
- GemaraThe Beis Olamim was 30 amos tall. The Mishkan was ten amos, known from 'eser amos orech hakeresh'. Since the Mishkan had no roof, only curtains (yerios), the length of the keresh was exactly the height of the Mishkan.
- GemaraIn tefachim the Mishkan was 60 tefachim, and a third of that is 20. Subtract the ten of the aron and kapores, which we know for sure, and ten remain.
- Ra'ayahThe pasuk 'vehayu hakeruvim porsei kenafayim lemaala sochechim bekanfeihem al hakapores' shows the wings were spread upward and sheltered the kapores. The Torah calls schach something above ten.
- KashaWho says the wings were above their heads? Maybe they were level with their heads, and then we gain nothing.
- TeirutzRav Acha bar Yaakov: it says 'lemaala'.
- KashaMaybe the wings went up a lot higher?
- TeirutzIt does not say 'lemaala lemaala', only 'lemaala', so we assume just above ten.
- MaskanaFrom here we learn that the ten tefachim of the sukkah walls do not include the schach.
- MachlokesR' Meir and R' Yehuda argue over how many tefachim are in an amah, which affects the calculation.
- ShitahR' Meir holds all the amos were beinonios (average), meaning six tefachim. The calculation works: the aron is 1.5 amos, which is 9 tefachim, plus a tefach of kapores.
- That the kapores is a tefach is not being questioned here; it is learned from pnei / pnei (the faces of the keruvim).
- ShitahR' Yehuda holds the amah of binyan (the structure, e.g. the kerashim) is six tefachim, but the amah of keilim is five. The Gemara asks: what is there to say according to him?
- GemaraThe aron and kapores come to 8.5 tefachim: 1.5 times 5 is 7.5, plus one for the kapores.
- GemaraA third of the Mishkan is still 20, since the binyan stays at six-tefach amos. So the heads of the keruvim are still at 20.
- KashaEleven and a half tefachim remain, so should we say a sukkah needs 11.5? That is a real question, because the first Mishnah in Sukkah says the minimum is ten.
- KashaThis works perfectly for R' Meir but not for R' Yehuda. Where does R' Yehuda get the ten from? He must have another source.
- TeirutzR' Yehuda: 'hilchesa gemiri lah', it is a halacha l'Moshe miSinai.
- Ra'ayahR' Chiya bar Ashi said in the name of Rav: shiurin (measurements), chatzitzin (separations, as by mikvah) and mechitzin (partitions, referring to our sukkah) are halacha l'Moshe miSinai.
- The RebbiIs this a retraction for R' Meir? Maybe not. R' Meir can stick with his limud, but R' Yehuda says the calculations do not work, so it is a halacha l'Moshe miSinai.
- ChazarahReview from line 33: for R' Meir every amah in the Mishkan was six tefachim and the calculation works. For R' Yehuda, the keruvim's heads are measured at a third of the binyan (six-tefach amos), but the aron and kapores are keilim (five-tefach amos).
- ChazarahFrom the floor to the heads of the keruvim is 20, and from the floor to the kapores is 8.5, leaving 11.5. So a sukkah would not be kosher below 11.5, with the schach on top of that. The answer is the halacha l'Moshe miSinai of shiurin, chatzitzin and mechitzin.
Kashas
- How do we know the ten-tefach minimum does not include the schach?
- Maybe the keruvim's wings were level with their heads, not above them.
- Maybe the wings went up much higher than ten?
- According to R' Yehuda (five-tefach amah for keilim), 11.5 tefachim remain. Should a sukkah need 11.5, against the Mishnah's ten?
Teirutzim
- Rav Acha bar Yaakov: it says 'lemaala', so the wings were above the heads.
- It does not say 'lemaala lemaala', so the wings were just above ten.
- R' Yehuda learns it from a halacha l'Moshe miSinai: shiurin, chatzitzin and mechitzin (R' Chiya bar Ashi in the name of Rav).
Mareh mekomos
- Pasuk describing the Beis Olamim (the house Shlomo built), used as the basis for the calculation.
- Pasuk that the height of each keruv in the Beis Olamim was ten amos.
- Braisa: the keruvim stood at a third of the height of the house, both in the Beis Olamim and in the Mishkan.
- 'Eser amos orech hakeresh': the source that the Mishkan was ten amos tall.
- 'Vehayu hakeruvim porsei kenafayim lemaala sochechim bekanfeihem al hakapores': the Torah calls the wings schach, above ten.
- Kapores is a tefach, learned from pnei / pnei (the faces of the keruvim).
- First Mishnah in Sukkah: the minimum height of a sukkah is ten tefachim.
- R' Chiya bar Ashi in the name of Rav: shiurin, chatzitzin and mechitzin are halacha l'Moshe miSinai.
The Rebbi’s chiddushim
- The opening kasha is a 'maybe' kasha, not a proof either way: maybe the ten includes the schach.
- The ten amos of the keruvim refers to their heads. The wings only come into the picture later, with 'porsei kenafayim lemaala'.
- The Mishkan had no roof, only curtains (yerios), so the length of a keresh is exactly the height of the Mishkan.
- Even though we are wiping the board of the earlier limud, one thing we know for sure is that the aron and kapores are ten.
- 'Beinonios' means average. There are amos of five, six or seven tefachim, and six is the one in between.
- The problem for R' Yehuda arises because the formula needs both measures: the keruvim's heads are measured by the binyan amah, but the aron and kapores by the keilim amah.
- R' Meir need not retract; he can keep his limud. Only R' Yehuda, for whom the calculation fails, relies on the halacha l'Moshe miSinai.
Unclear in recording
- Remark that maybe the minimum depends on a person's height: unclear in recording.
- Discussion with the chabura about whether the schach-to-schach link is a hekesh or gezeirah shavah, and how the schach relates to the twenty-amah maximum: unclear in recording.
- Response to Menachem's point about the Shechina not coming down below ten (possibly that this would be a new minimum for Shechina): unclear in recording.
- Remark that 'the last three blatt was all nishma, not naaseh': meaning unclear in recording.
- Closing comments on the halacha l'Moshe miSinai ('we have no real limud... they come in conjunction... they don't work through sukkah'): cut off and unclear in recording.
Drafted from the recording of the shiur, for chazarah. Torah terms follow the Rebbi’s own words; anything that could not be made out is marked “unclear in recording”. Tap a time to hear that point. Corrections welcome.